Marco Chen
Publications
SageBwd: A Trainable Low-bit Attention
Low-bit attention, such as SageAttention, has emerged as an effective approach for accelerating model inference, but its applicability to training remains poorly understood. In prior work, we introduced SageBwd, a trainable INT8 attention that quantizes six of seven attention matrix multiplications while preserving fine-tuning performance. However, SageBwd exhibited a persistent performance gap to full-precision attention (FPA) during pre-training. In this work, we investigate why this gap occurs and demonstrate that SageBwd matches full-precision attention during pretraining. Through experiments and theoretical analysis, we reach a few important insights and conclusions: (i) QK-norm is necessary for stable training at large tokens per step, (ii) quantization errors primarily arise from the backward-pass score gradient dS, (iii) reducing tokens per step enables SageBwd to match FPA performance in pre-training, and (iv) K-smoothing remains essential for training stability, while Q-smoothing provides limited benefit during pre-training.
Delving into Muon and Beyond: Deep Analysis and Extensions
The Muon optimizer has recently attracted considerable attention for its strong empirical performance and use of orthogonalized updates on matrix-shaped parameters, yet its underlying mechanisms and relationship to adaptive optimizers such as Adam remain insufficiently understood. In this work, we aim to address these questions through a unified spectral perspective. Specifically, we view Muon as the p = 0 endpoint of a family of spectral transformations of the form U \boldsymbolΣ^{p} V' , and consider additional variants with p = 1/2 , p = 1/4 , and p = 1 . These transformations are applied to both first-moment updates, as in momentum SGD, and to root-mean-square (RMS) normalized gradient updates as in Adam. To enable efficient computation, we develop a coupled Newton iteration that avoids explicit singular value decomposition. Across controlled experiments, we find that RMS-normalized updates yield more stable optimization than first-moment updates. Moreover, while spectral compression provides strong stabilization benefits under first-moment updates, the Muon update (p = 0) does not consistently outperform Adam. These results suggest that Muon is best understood as an effective form of spectral normalization, but not a universally superior optimization method. Our source code will be released at https://github.com/Ocram7/BeyondMuon.